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Saturday, November 14, 2009

The Thief on the Cross -- my research. =)


There's no better way to spend Shabbat then in the Word of G-D! =)
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In my 8.5 years of being a Christian, I never really studied up on the thief on the Cross.
Who knew it would cause so much division though...wow...
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So with my Bible, concordance, pen and paper, this morning / afternoon I went to work to get a better understanding of it. (Luke 23)
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What most Christians quote is that 1 verse, verse 43 which states "And J-SUS said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in paradise".
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But they are missing something, something important...verse 42!
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Verse 42 states this " And he (the thief) said unto Jesus, L-RD, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom".
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Christ's reign of His kingdom is still yet to come! He hasn't come back for His church.
Unless me and millions of other Christians have missed the boat and He came back without us knowing. =)
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And now to the verse that sends everyone overboard...
Verse 43 -- "And J-SUS said unto him, Verily, I say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in Paradise".
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So I sat there with my Bible and concordance and thought to myself 'what exactly is this paradise Yahshua speaks of?'
According to Strong's # 3857 it's a park, an Eden (place of future happiness).
Sounds like my kind of place! =)
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I seen that the word paradise is only mentioned 2 more times in Scripture so I decided to scope them out to see what they say.
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II Corinthians 12:4 - " How that he was caught up into paradise and heard unspeakable words, which is not lawful for a man to utter"
It's Paul's vision of paradise. It also mentions about a 3rd heaven in verse 2.
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The final verse of Scripture about paradise is found in Revelation 2:7 --
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" He that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit saith unto the churches; To him that over cometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of G-D".
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Guess what? The tree of life talked about here is the same tree of life talked about in Genesis 2:9, Genesis 3:22 in Eden!
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I can see how Yahshua wants to restore His kingdom to what it used to be like in the garden of Eden, before the fall.
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So, after I figured that out, I sat wonder why all the confusion over this verse?
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The confusion lies that many believe the thief when to Heaven with Yahshua after they both breathed their last breath.
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Both Yahshua and this thief, after breathing their last breath, went to their graves.
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We know what happened to Yahshua, he laid in the sepulchre 3 days, 3 nights before His resurrection.
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You all can disagree with me or give me some actual Scriptural proof as to where the thief went to, but I still see that all of us who breathe our last breath are asleep until Yahshua's 2nd coming. I don't have to repeat Scriptures for that as you can find them all in my previous blog posts.
Why would it be any different for the thief?
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But Yahshua did promise the thief that he will be in the new Kingdom with Christ when He returns.
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A few tidbits to think on:
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* When Yahshua was talking to the thief on the Cross, He was talking to him that day it was happening, i.e. in his case he was saying "today", meaning 'the day that I'm talking to you'.
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* The statement "I say unto thee to day" is a Hebrew custom that whenever they wanted to emphasize something important, they would make the statement 'I say unto thee this day'. "This day" occurs 70 times in the book of Deuteronomy alone!
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* In the original manuscripts there were no chapters, verse divisions, paragraph markings, punctuation (i.e. commas and periods), they were all added by man. It was men who decided based on their beliefs where all the periods and commas go.
Figures...
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So, I praise Yahweh for this study and I do believe I have a better understanding of this controversial topic. =)
Shalom,
Dawn

14 comments:

Jessie-Bessie said...

Just wondering what is your view on where Enoch and Elijah are? as they didn't die. Thanks

Julie said...

My husband and I are talking about this and here is what we were thinking about. Honestly just some thoughts no condemnation.
What about the great cloud of witnesses in Heb 12? Or the verse that talks about to be absent from the body in 2Corinthians 5.
My husband mentioned that it was explained to him once that Jesus told the man he would go to Paradise or Abraham's bosom, where the "righteous Hebrews" went before Christ died.
I don't know for sure. It's all very fascinating to me. I'm sure that if we are asleep til Jesus comes we won't even realize it! :)
Very interesting, my friend. Thanks for the thoughts.

Anonymous said...

Dawn, your post is straight from the Word of Yahweh. It is written beautifully. I commend you for being brave and teaching truth, though the truth is not the popular thing these days, even the very elect will be deceived, but Yahweh has a remnant, and out of all the hundreds or more that will come across this post, you can rejoice with the angels if one person turns to the side of GOD and chooses to put away all the man made traditions and deceit from the enemy.

Dawn said...

Jessie Bessie,

Hope you don't mind I made your question into a blog post. =)

I figured there was no point in hiding my answer in the comment section, but thought I would share my findings with the rest of the blog world.

Julie,
Good questions. I will pray and research the Scriptures and then make a blog post about it...may take a couple days though because, well you know..life gets busy.
But I will pour myself into the Scriptures and you and your hubby can do the same and we'll put our heads together to better understand what YHWH is telling us.
=)

Scripture study is so exciting!

Michelle Therese said...

Dawn, you know I'm blunt, right? So I'm just going to say it how it is "Titus 2" style ~ but this is so totally not a personal attack. Just a, "Who do you think you're kidding?" Deffinately not me and I suspect not yourself either...

Ok, you wrote:

"But they are missing something, something important...verse 42!"

Ah, another Protestant tactic: use one verse of scripture to "cancel out" another. (And then launch into other books of the New Testament in order to avoid the words that come from the mouth of Christ.)

Dawn, face it: Jesus spoke very clearly. He said, "TODAY you will be with me in Paradise." He didn't say, "You'll be with Me in Paradise after My second coming..." He said, "TODAY you will be with me in Paradise." AND YOU KNOW IT!! There is no way that you can explain that away, no matter how many other scripture verses you pull out of the air to try and prove Jesus wrong.

To be continued...

Michelle Therese said...

....The thing is, in order to "prove" the teaching that "there aren't any souls in heaven yet" you have to re-write scripture and put words into Jesus's mouth that He never spoke. The text says:

"42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

How can you possibly miss what Jesus is saying except that you don't *want* to see what Jesus is saying? How can you take the proceeding verse and use it to cancel out the following verse except that you don't want to see that Jesus is saying, "TODAY" rather then, "At my second coming which hasn't happend yet..." (Which you are attempting to superimpose over that verse. No! Bad! Yes, I'm annoyed.)

What you are doing is classic of non-Catholic christianity. You are re-writing scripture to suit your *personal* beliefs. You don't want to see what the bible is actually saying. You are seeing instead:

"42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, *after my second coming* (not today) shalt thou be with me in paradise. But since my second coming hasn't happened yet thou shalt have to wait to be in Paradise with me until that time. Which means there are no souls in heaven and thus the Catholics are wrong about there being Saints. Got that?"

to be continued...

Michelle Therese said...

If you don't put words into Jesus's mouth then you'll read very clearly that His kingdom was going to come TODAY. That very day. The day of His crucifixion, not at His second coming way off in the future. But you can't allow that because then you'd have to admit that you're wrong and yes, there are souls in heaven right now. But seriously, which is more important to you, Dawn? God or yourself? Are you going to willingly usurp the authority of your Creator so that you can believe what you want to believe?? I'm starting to worry about your soul!

Just admit the truth to yourself: you don't *want* to believe that there are souls in heaven. This would mean that you'd then have to consider the possibility that the Catholic Church is correct about something and this would mean that you'd have to start to question your Quest For Plain Living and your attraction to the Mennonite faith.

So, because you don't *want* to believe that their are souls in heaven right now, you'll even go so far as to blatantly ignore and re-write the very scriptures you so love and honor. Instead of submitting to God, you will ignore the very words of Christ Himself and decide **for yourself** what you want to believe, under *your* own authority. Not God's authority, but your own authority.

As your friend, please allow me to say something: For a while now I've watched as you've gone deeper and deeper into rebellion. Your husband is Catholic. You claim to be submitting to your husband. You even wear the head covering to sybolize your submission. And yet... you insist on going your own way as a Christian ~ you are stepping out from under the headship of your husband and your God and deciding for *yourself* what you will believe, even to the point of twisting scripture.

If I were you I'd knock it off and submit to God and husband and stop looking at Mennonite churches and be Catholic as your husband is Catholic. Otherwise you'll just keep pulling yourself in the opposite direction of your husband and your God ~ which will do nothing for your marriage or your spiritual life and God knows what with regards to your salvation.

You are at this point in time rebelling against scripture, God, and your husband. This much is so blatantly obvious that I finally have to speak up. (Yeah, I'm going all Titus 2 on you...) Your rebellion scares me to death because I love you as a dear sister in Christ. Just... be careful Dawn. And pray for me while you're at it and I'll pray for you. Meanwhile, get your butt in gear and quit with this rebellion nonsense! Submit to your God and your husband and knock it off!

With love, but without kid gloves,
Your sister in Christ,
Michelle

Anonymous said...

I have to say. I have to agree with every word Coffee Catholic said. All the way to joining the Catholic Church with your husband. If it is not where God wants you to be HE will change things.

You are in my prayers:

Alizah Batyah said...

Deborah is a FINE example that sometimes women do take the lead. I am by no means saying this is the normall but...if we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling then you better make sure you have a realtionship strong enough that he actually speaks to you, leads you and guides you in his ways.

Scripture after scripture confirms that we rest until the return of Yahshua. No scriptures point to prayers to saints.

What was said about the Hebrew way of saying this was exactly right and it taken out of that context can be saying anything BUT, if he took Enoch and Elijah without them seeing death...why can't he put the theif where ever he wants TODAY? We have put him in a box and he's only ALLOWED to do just so much for it boggles our minds to think he might do something outside the box. So, you can believe the WORD which says it as Dawn said it says or we can let our imaginations run wild.

Dawn, I also struggle with the balance between be in submission to my husband and working out my own salvation. In my case, my husband doesn't walk in much but his own self will. He has told me to follow whatever path Yahweh leads me on but then that path sometimes makes him angry because he don't feeling Yahweh's conviction...not mine.

If your husband is ok with what you are doing and not telling you flat out not to do it, I say go forward. If he is fighting you, you need to make sure your taking it all to Yahweh. Yahweh is truth and we both know the bondage of lies and deceptions he has been taught. It is hard to be a woman of Yahweh sometimes. I am by NO MEANS telling you to stop your walk but to make sure you do all under the leading of Yahweh!

Blessings to you Achoti!! As for the spewing...Yahshua said if they hated him they would hate us. Just keep your eyes on him.

Anonymous said...

Dawn you are right about what you have taught here on your blog. Anytime you read the scriptures about some one dying, the Bible calls it sleep or sleeping.In the book of
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

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Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

There is so much Bible verses that speak about this but I could never fit them all here.
Cofee Catholic may be able to post a few, but the Word of GOD is always consistant.
Course she is not "allowed" to study or read the Bible since she is Catholic. Cofee catholic is a real good exaple on how the Catholi church treats people who do not want to be in their church. If it was still allowed, they would kill us.
Tabaitha (Plain Sabbath Keeper)

Anonymous said...

um plain sabbath keeper, the Catholic Church doesn't want to kill you.

Dawn said...

Lisa ~

I am submissive to my husband and I would never go against anything he didn't want me to do.

I always run everything by him, sometimes 2, 3 times just to make sure I get his opinion / answer on everything. =)

He's a good man, and we may not be equally yoked spiritually, but he has said he doesn't want to hinder my walk with YHWH and to obey Him as He leads. He's very supportive actually.
I'm blessed. =)

Anonymous said...

Sis Dawn,

I hope that you are not taking the rebuking from Coffee Catholic to heart. It was harsh and in my opinion, she should have done it in private. I think your teaching was very well done, and scripturally supported.

Blessings

Sis Heather

Alizah Batyah said...

Praise Yahweh Dawn! It is so hard to be unequally yoked spiritually. To have a husband that supports your walk is such a huge blessing! Achoti, I am happy for you!

Shalom aleichm!